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香港三國論壇 > 天水城 > 安全感

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Aug 30 2015, 05:20

話說我不太搞得懂某些人口中的所謂安全感是什麼，但求集思廣益。某些人的理論：

窮，沒安全感。在物質社會，錢是很重要的，憂柴憂米的日子怎麼過。
有錢，沒安全感。在物質社會，聲色犬馬，誘惑處處。一個有錢的人會趨於享樂，不容易被留在身邊。
帥，沒安全感。帥的人受歡迎，有很多選擇，要他忠於自己並不容易。
...(以上只是一些例子，還有其他沒安全感的理由，小弟記不清，請原諒。)

我聽到她們口中說的「某某沒安全感、某某能保護我就好了」‥我想問，世界很危險嗎？還是她們有很多仇家？我不是在「串」她們，是真的不明白，那份不安究竟來自甚麼？

發表者: neveryield Aug 30 2015, 05:35

香港政治紛亂，安全感變差。

發表者: Caesar Aug 30 2015, 05:49

由十一二歲開始聽鄰座的女同學聊安全感，到現在想來都聽超過一個生肖了。

結論就是很多時女生雖然嘴上嚷嚷什麼要安全感，
但她們本身也不太清楚到底她們要的東西從何而來。
(不過對於一個男生能否給她們安全感倒是能判斷的)

說到底，真正的安全感，
是建基於兩個人對於未來的共同寄望、規劃、並可預見地一步一步實現它。
安全感就是從這個過程中建立起來的。

當然影響上面這過程的因素有很多，例如錢、成熟度、共有興趣，甚至是權力、外貌等。

而很多人，也許是港女濫用了這個詞語，也許是真的混淆了因果本末倒置了，
總之就是搞混了。

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Aug 30 2015, 05:52

QUOTE (Caesar @ Aug 30 2015, 05:49 )

謝謝回應。有時我覺得她們把一切想要的東西泛指為「安全感」。

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Aug 30 2015, 05:53

QUOTE (neveryield @ Aug 30 2015, 05:35 )

香港政治紛亂，安全感變差。

好吧。如果沒有更好的解釋，我就採納你的這個。

發表者: Pearltea Aug 30 2015, 06:14

說這些話的女性, 原因大多是以下:
1-自己內心的不安全感 (Insecurity)或缺乏自信
2-找藉口來拒絕追求者/埋怨男朋友或丈夫

收入 - 她們也可以自己找工作啊. 有學識有能力怎會過憂柴憂米的日子呢? 自己學會理財更能為自己提供物質需要。如果對方收入好, 卻是一個只沉迷追求物質和新鮮感的人, 那就不是錢的問題而是個性的問題了。
長相 - 這個不是帶點歧視成分嗎? 女性大多喜歡打扮得漂亮的, 那為何男性不能長得帥呢? 如果他為了選擇而不忠於一她的話, 那是人品而不是長相的問題。

雖然安全感這些說話一定令很多男生頭痛, 但我想更大的原因是傳統的思想和教育吧. 自古以來的社會都是以男性為一家之主, 賺錢養家, 而女性則相夫教子. 雖然隨著社會的改變和女性的地位提升, 女性很多能獨立自主, 但這一代的女兒們很多還是在傳統家庭環境下長大的, 大多會保留些傳統家庭角色思想吧. 要改變這些思想不是一朝一夕的事啊. 希望新一代的父母們都能教孩子不同的家庭角色, 令他們不要盲目地困綁在傳統的思想中.

如果我是在香港又是男性的話, 以下的說話可能會引起罵戰...

將任何原因/要求說成安全感的, 正是表現出自己沒有的東西或對自己沒有自信的attribute. 找一個人來彌補自己的不足不是沒可能, 但那只是把自己的不安/缺乏找一個短暫的心靈填補, 對方遲早會感受得到的. 到時候究竟她是找了一個真正喜歡的人, 還是一個能得彌補自己一時不足的人? 那他喜歡她甚麼呢?

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Aug 30 2015, 09:13

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Aug 30 2015, 06:14 )

謝謝，有點理解了。妳的這些話可以節省我不少的時間，撈海底針可不是輕易的事‥難得有知性的人‥請讓我多問幾句。如果她出身於小康之家；月薪不到兩萬；社會缺乏向上的機會；男人們靠不住(至少她認為如此)‥ 那她的這種不安感算有根據嗎？另外，其實拒絕追求者需要藉口嗎？直接拒絕不就可以了？

發表者: Pearltea Aug 30 2015, 17:30

在講求事實根據的現代, 有多少人能夠接受無解釋的想法和觀點?

-說得上不安全感那當然有理由和根據, 無論是真正憂柴憂米或是上流社會的人也可以說出自己感到不安全. 不然怎能為自己找個辯解和顯得更合理呢?
-為甚麼不直接拒絕對方? 有人會欣然接受嗎? 被拒絕的人會完全不去尋找真相, 不會亂想嗎? 我認為大部份人寧願聽到醜陋不堪的理由或完美的藉口也不願被無理由的答案否定.

其實"撈海底針可不是輕易的事"和"社會缺乏向上的機會；男人們靠不住"是一樣的道理. 常抱著負面想法的人, 總是會遇上自己想出來的阻礙的. 這是自証預言(self-fulfill prophecy). 我看你在論壇的發表, 不像個盲目跟從, 怨天尤人的人. 還是盡量趕走這些負能量吧.

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Aug 31 2015, 01:06

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Aug 30 2015, 17:30 )

謝謝。星期一很忙，稍後再聊。

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Aug 31 2015, 13:01

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Aug 31 2015, 01:06 )

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Aug 30 2015, 17:30)

謝謝。星期一很忙，稍後再聊。

那些的確是怨言，而我不期望她們有跟妳一般的體會。所以，就算不認同埋怨，我仍然想理解埋怨的背後是甚麼。那些不安的來源，是男生造成的？是社會造成的？是自作自受？還是有多種原因‥那些女生當中，有自己喜歡的人；有姐姐、表妹、同學、同事‥ 嘗試去理解她們，對我來說是一件不容易、但值得做的事。為什麼姐姐寧願浸淫在漫畫和Kpop裡，都不屑社交生活？為什麼女同事們喜歡在閒聊時數說男人的不堪？我有一種感覺，好像化妝越濃的女生，看上去越不幸福‥我在嘗試理解清楚以上的事‥也許沒有人可以改變甚麼，就算看透世事，又能如何呢？找個解釋，心安理得罷了。現在算是多點頭緒了，謝謝。

發表者: Pearltea Aug 31 2015, 15:07

There could be many driving forces behind their thoughts and perceptions, such as society, upbringing (family's relationship and education), personal experience, peer pressure (trash talking men with friends), media effects (what women 'should' do in relationships, or signs of an ideal family formation etc.) It's hard to pinpoint a specific reason but these should more or less have some influences in their thinking. I'll try to address some of your concerns on a macro level.

Society:
I made a comment about http://hksan.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15670&st=0&#entry224156 - I want to refer to it again in my message here.
user posted image

IMHO, ladies who focus on their psychological needs have their basic needs taken care of. Now this could be an issue when they are dependent upon their families in providing those, and when it's time to move on to another chapter of life (getting married) , those burdens are then transferred to their spouse. Nevertheless I would have to agree that the cost of housing is contributing to a part of the problem, because it prevents many young working professionals to get a chance to live on their own, be financially independent, and to be held accountable for providing their own basic needs.

But why are men expected to provide for the family?

Upbringing:
This goes back to my previous post. As mentioned, this generation is still largely brought up by families with very defined and traditional gender roles. Girls are often taught and be expected to act more lady-like, to listen, be nice, caring and considerate etc, when boys are taught not to cry, to toughen up, speak up, and are expected to provide for their families. These upbringings play a large role in shaping up gender bias and inequality we have today. Girls and boys were often educated differently and that's why they tend to act in ways which they were told are acceptable and normal.

(Their brain formations are also a bit different but let's just keep in simple here)

This also explains why women tend to form groups and look to each other for support during adversity (為什麼女同事們喜歡在閒聊時數說男人的不堪？), while men tend to be alone and keep their frustrations to themselves.

For your sister, I think she sounds more like an introvert. Introverts prefer solitude and are just fine being by themselves most of the time. It's sad that they are often misunderstood and are judged when they do things that they enjoy the most but are not consider the 'social norms' (whether it's reading manga, jogging, or playing computer games).
-----------------------------------
I know whatever I outlined above seems a little contradictory to what I said earlier, I'll address that later..having a rough day

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Aug 31 2015, 15:44

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Aug 31 2015, 15:07)

There could be many driving forces behind their thoughts and perceptions, such as society, upbringing (family\'s relationship and education), personal experience, peer pressure (trash talking men with friends), media effects (what women \'should\' do in relationships, or signs of an ideal family formation etc.) It\'s hard to pinpoint a specific reason but these should more or less have some influences in their thinking. I\'ll try to address some of your concerns in a macro level.

Society:
I made a comment about http://hksan.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15670&st=0&#entry224156 - I want to refer to it again in my message here. user posted image

IMHO, ladies who focus on their psychological needs have their basic needs taken care of. Now this could be an issue when they are dependent upon their families in providing those, and when it\'s time to move on to another chapter of life (getting married) , these burdens are then transferred to their spouses. Nevertheless I would have to agree that the cost of housing is contributing to a part of the problem, which prevents many young working professionals to get a chance to live on their own, be financially independent, and to be held accountable for providing their own basic needs.

But why are men expected to provide for the family?

Upbringing:
This goes back to my previous post. As mentioned, this generation is still largely brought up in families with very defined and traditional gender roles. Girls are often taught and be expected to act more lady-like, to listen, be nice, caring and considerate etc, when boys are taught not to cry, to toughen up, speak up, and are expected to provide for their families. These upbringings play a large role in shaping up gender bias and inequality we have today. Girls and boys were often educated differently and that\'s why they tend to act in ways which they were told are acceptable and normal.

(Their brain formations are also a bit different but let\'s just keep in simple here)

This also explains why women tend to form groups and look for each other for support during adversity (為什麼女同事們喜歡在閒聊時數說男人的不堪？), while men tend to be alone and keep their frustrations to themselves.

For your sister, I think she sounds more like an introvert. Introverts prefer solitude and are just fine being by themselves most of the time. It\'s sad that they are often misunderstood and are judged when they do things that they enjoy the most but are not consider the \'social norms\' (whether it\'s reading manga, jogging, or playing computer games).
-----------------------------------
I know whatever I outlined above seems a little contradictory to what I said earlier, I\'ll address that later..having a rough day

You're writing in English, and that means the post was written during office hours... Actually you don't have to react that fast

Many thanks for your hearty response.

發表者: XxEDxX Aug 31 2015, 17:04

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Aug 31 2015, 23:44 )

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Aug 31 2015, 15:07)

IMHO, ladies who focus on their psychological needs have their basic needs taken care of. Now this could be an issue when they are dependent upon their families in providing those, and when it\'s time to move on to another chapter of life (getting married) , these burdens are then transferred to their spouses. Nevertheless I would have to agree that the cost of housing is contributing to a part of the problem, which prevents many young working professionals to get a chance to live on their own, be financially independent, and to be held accountable for providing their own basic needs.

But why are men expected to provide for the family?

Upbringing:
This goes back to my previous post. As mentioned, this generation is still largely brought up in families with very defined and traditional gender roles. Girls are often taught and be expected to act more lady-like, to listen, be nice, caring and considerate etc, when boys are taught not to cry, to toughen up, speak up, and are expected to provide for their families. These upbringings play a large role in shaping up gender bias and inequality we have today. Girls and boys were often educated differently and that\'s why they tend to act in ways which they were told are acceptable and normal.

(Their brain formations are also a bit different but let\'s just keep in simple here)

This also explains why women tend to form groups and look for each other for support during adversity (為什麼女同事們喜歡在閒聊時數說男人的不堪？), while men tend to be alone and keep their frustrations to themselves.

For your sister, I think she sounds more like an introvert. Introverts prefer solitude and are just fine being by themselves most of the time. It\'s sad that they are often misunderstood and are judged when they do things that they enjoy the most but are not consider the \'social norms\' (whether it\'s reading manga, jogging, or playing computer games).
-----------------------------------
I know whatever I outlined above seems a little contradictory to what I said earlier, I\'ll address that later..having a rough day

You're writing in English, and that means the post was written during office hours... Actually you don't have to react that fast

Many thanks for your hearty response.

多嘴插句嘴

In fact I can't see the relationship between office hour and typing in english?
Perhaps Pearltea is much more used to expressing her words in English?
She has once mentioned that she feels that she is not expressing her ideas well in Chinese, although I disagree

Still very clear to me.

對不起亂插嘴

請諸位原諒

發表者: 懶蛇 Aug 31 2015, 17:09

QUOTE (XxEDxX @ Aug 31 2015, 13:04 )

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Aug 31 2015, 23:44)

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Aug 31 2015, 15:07)

IMHO, ladies who focus on their psychological needs have their basic needs taken care of. Now this could be an issue when they are dependent upon their families in providing those, and when it\'s time to move on to another chapter of life (getting married) , these burdens are then transferred to their spouses. Nevertheless I would have to agree that the cost of housing is contributing to a part of the problem, which prevents many young working professionals to get a chance to live on their own, be financially independent, and to be held accountable for providing their own basic needs.

But why are men expected to provide for the family?

Upbringing:
This goes back to my previous post. As mentioned, this generation is still largely brought up in families with very defined and traditional gender roles. Girls are often taught and be expected to act more lady-like, to listen, be nice, caring and considerate etc, when boys are taught not to cry, to toughen up, speak up, and are expected to provide for their families. These upbringings play a large role in shaping up gender bias and inequality we have today. Girls and boys were often educated differently and that\'s why they tend to act in ways which they were told are acceptable and normal.

(Their brain formations are also a bit different but let\'s just keep in simple here)

This also explains why women tend to form groups and look for each other for support during adversity (為什麼女同事們喜歡在閒聊時數說男人的不堪？), while men tend to be alone and keep their frustrations to themselves.

For your sister, I think she sounds more like an introvert. Introverts prefer solitude and are just fine being by themselves most of the time. It\'s sad that they are often misunderstood and are judged when they do things that they enjoy the most but are not consider the \'social norms\' (whether it\'s reading manga, jogging, or playing computer games).
-----------------------------------
I know whatever I outlined above seems a little contradictory to what I said earlier, I\'ll address that later..having a rough day

You're writing in English, and that means the post was written during office hours... Actually you don't have to react that fast

Many thanks for your hearty response.

多嘴插句嘴

Still very clear to me.

對不起亂插嘴

請諸位原諒

公司機未必有中文輸入法。

發表者: XxEDxX Aug 31 2015, 17:23

QUOTE (懶蛇 @ Sep 1 2015, 01:09 )

QUOTE (XxEDxX @ Aug 31 2015, 13:04)

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Aug 31 2015, 23:44)

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Aug 31 2015, 15:07)

IMHO, ladies who focus on their psychological needs have their basic needs taken care of. Now this could be an issue when they are dependent upon their families in providing those, and when it\'s time to move on to another chapter of life (getting married) , these burdens are then transferred to their spouses. Nevertheless I would have to agree that the cost of housing is contributing to a part of the problem, which prevents many young working professionals to get a chance to live on their own, be financially independent, and to be held accountable for providing their own basic needs.

But why are men expected to provide for the family?

Upbringing:
This goes back to my previous post. As mentioned, this generation is still largely brought up in families with very defined and traditional gender roles. Girls are often taught and be expected to act more lady-like, to listen, be nice, caring and considerate etc, when boys are taught not to cry, to toughen up, speak up, and are expected to provide for their families. These upbringings play a large role in shaping up gender bias and inequality we have today. Girls and boys were often educated differently and that\'s why they tend to act in ways which they were told are acceptable and normal.

(Their brain formations are also a bit different but let\'s just keep in simple here)

This also explains why women tend to form groups and look for each other for support during adversity (為什麼女同事們喜歡在閒聊時數說男人的不堪？), while men tend to be alone and keep their frustrations to themselves.

For your sister, I think she sounds more like an introvert. Introverts prefer solitude and are just fine being by themselves most of the time. It\'s sad that they are often misunderstood and are judged when they do things that they enjoy the most but are not consider the \'social norms\' (whether it\'s reading manga, jogging, or playing computer games).
-----------------------------------
I know whatever I outlined above seems a little contradictory to what I said earlier, I\'ll address that later..having a rough day

You're writing in English, and that means the post was written during office hours... Actually you don't have to react that fast

Many thanks for your hearty response.

多嘴插句嘴

Still very clear to me.

對不起亂插嘴

請諸位原諒

公司機未必有中文輸入法。

Yes probably. The only reason I can think of ATM.

發表者: Pearltea Sep 1 2015, 05:08

你們都說對了: 我當時的回應是在公司; 公司機是沒有中文輸入功能的; 我的中文能力有限也是事實. 坦白說, 有不少詞語還要靠google翻譯和/或wiki search. 所以不肯定的都會中英一起寫出來.

如有錯誤還請大家糾正.

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Sep 1 2015, 05:50

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Sep 1 2015, 05:08 )

如有錯誤還請大家糾正.

不要緊，覺得中文或英文方便的，儘管用吧。

發表者: Pearltea Sep 2 2015, 03:44

I know it sounds a little contradicting that I brought up society and upbringing as contributing factors to the sense of insecurity, and in my first two posts (in Chinese) I suggested that insecurity is rather a state of mind. I still think it is, and the other factors are rather interrelated to this.

This could be a much deeper topic to explore into and the concepts could conflict with some religious beliefs (apologies in advance) - but I love to relate this to the 'Conscious and Subconscious mind' - where the former is responsible for the awareness of the presence and the latter governs the memory retrieval, habitual actions and beliefs. The simple way to think of this is that you are constantly and consciously learning from things that you encounter on a daily basis. Whether these events or occurrences produce a positive or negative outcome, your conscious mind process the information, translate into understandings and memories to be sent to and learned by the subconscious mind. With enough repetitions, they become long term memory, wisdom, and beliefs. When you act on something without thinking, it is your subconscious mind doing its work; when you state a belief, it is recalled from the knowledge/experience you have with the subject from the subconscious mind. It could be simple things such as stopping at the red right even when you're engaging in conversations with friends; stepping aside and waiting for passengers to get off the bus/train before boarding etc. These actions are habitual and do not require any conscious thinking or being alert by them. So these are some simple explanations of how the two minds work.

At this point, you're probably asking "What the heck does that have to do with those insecurities that I'm hearing from the ladies?"

This is where we can sum up everything mentioned previously. Feeling insecure or believing certain things provide security is a belief, and it comes from the subconscious mind. Thus your friends/cousin/crush are holding these beliefs based on what society, upbringing, personal experience, peer pressure, and media influences etc have taught them over the years. They consciously learned from the source of information (whether it was right or wrong), but the kicker is that they accepted what was suggested to them and eventually led to believe that the information is true.

So let's just call it the day, it is what it is, right? Well, there is hope.

Beliefs can be 'unlearned'. Yes your subconscious mind can relearn something and be retrained by choice (consciously) and eventually overwrite what you have learned. But it take takes time, consistency, patience and lots of repetitions. Choose the right thoughts and practice mental disciplines would be crucial to success. This would be a great way to eliminate cynicism and negative thoughts - by instilling positive thoughts. One thing I neglected (purposely

) to mention before is that this only works on you - yes you can't change anyone but yourself. I know you have great intention to understand your loved ones and want to prove that relationship means more than providing securities, unfortunately it's beyond your ability to fix that. You can though, lead by example. Be the person who is willing to offer open ears and listen to their concerns, and shares your wisdom as appropriate.

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Sep 2 2015, 05:59

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Sep 2 2015, 03:44 )

I know it sounds a little contradicting that I brought up society and upbringing as contributing factors to the sense of insecurity, and in my first two posts (in Chinese) I suggested that insecurity is rather a state of mind. I still think it is, and the other factors are rather interrelated to this.

This could be a much deeper topic to explore into and the concepts could conflict with some religious beliefs (apologies in advance) - but I love to relate this to the 'Conscious and Subconscious mind' - where the former is responsible for the awareness of the presence and the latter governs the memory retrieval, habitual actions and beliefs. The simple way to think of this is that you are constantly and consciously learning from things that you encounter on a daily basis. Whether these events or occurrences produce a positive or negative outcome, your conscious mind process the information, translate into understandings and memories to be sent to and learned by the subconscious mind. With enough repetitions, they become long term memory, wisdom, and beliefs. When you act on something without thinking, it is your subconscious mind doing its work; when you state a belief, it is recalled from the knowledge/experience you have with the subject from the subconscious mind. It could be simple things such as stopping at the red right even when you're engaging in conversations with friends; stepping aside and waiting for passengers to get off the bus/train before boarding etc. These actions are habitual and do not require any conscious thinking or being alert by them. So these are some simple explanations of how the two minds work.

At this point, you're probably asking "What the heck does that have to do with those insecurities that I'm hearing from the ladies?"

This is where we can sum up everything mentioned previously. Feeling insecure or believing certain things provide security is a belief, and it comes from the subconscious mind. Thus your friends/cousin/crush are holding these beliefs based on what society, upbringing, personal experience, peer pressure, or media influences etc have taught them over the years. They consciously learned from the source of information (whether it was right or wrong), but the kicker is that they accepted what was suggested to them and eventually led to believe that the information is true.

So let's just call it the day, it is what it is, right? Well, there is hope.

Beliefs can be 'unlearned'. Yes your subconscious mind can relearn something and be retrained by choice (consciously) and eventually overwrite what you have learned. But it take takes time, consistency, patience and lots of repetitions. Choose the right thoughts and practice mental disciplines would be the crucial to success. This would be a great way to eliminate cynicism and negative thoughts - by instilling positive thoughts. One thing I neglected (purposely

) to mention before is that this only works on you - yes you can't change anyone but yourself. I know you have great intention to understand your loved ones and want to prove that relationship means more than providing securities, unfortunately it's beyond your ability fixed that. You can though, lead by example. Be the person who is willing to offer open ears and listen to their concerns, and shares your wisdom as appropriate.

lunch time is over(13:00-14:00), and I'll reply later, see you

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Sep 2 2015, 16:41

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Sep 2 2015, 03:44 )

I know it sounds a little contradicting that I brought up society and upbringing as contributing factors to the sense of insecurity, and in my first two posts (in Chinese) I suggested that insecurity is rather a state of mind. I still think it is, and the other factors are rather interrelated to this.

This could be a much deeper topic to explore into and the concepts could conflict with some religious beliefs (apologies in advance) - but I love to relate this to the 'Conscious and Subconscious mind' - where the former is responsible for the awareness of the presence and the latter governs the memory retrieval, habitual actions and beliefs. The simple way to think of this is that you are constantly and consciously learning from things that you encounter on a daily basis. Whether these events or occurrences produce a positive or negative outcome, your conscious mind process the information, translate into understandings and memories to be sent to and learned by the subconscious mind. With enough repetitions, they become long term memory, wisdom, and beliefs. When you act on something without thinking, it is your subconscious mind doing its work; when you state a belief, it is recalled from the knowledge/experience you have with the subject from the subconscious mind. It could be simple things such as stopping at the red right even when you're engaging in conversations with friends; stepping aside and waiting for passengers to get off the bus/train before boarding etc. These actions are habitual and do not require any conscious thinking or being alert by them. So these are some simple explanations of how the two minds work.

At this point, you're probably asking "What the heck does that have to do with those insecurities that I'm hearing from the ladies?"

This is where we can sum up everything mentioned previously. Feeling insecure or believing certain things provide security is a belief, and it comes from the subconscious mind. Thus your friends/cousin/crush are holding these beliefs based on what society, upbringing, personal experience, peer pressure, or media influences etc have taught them over the years. They consciously learned from the source of information (whether it was right or wrong), but the kicker is that they accepted what was suggested to them and eventually led to believe that the information is true.

So let's just call it the day, it is what it is, right? Well, there is hope.

Beliefs can be 'unlearned'. Yes your subconscious mind can relearn something and be retrained by choice (consciously) and eventually overwrite what you have learned. But it take takes time, consistency, patience and lots of repetitions. Choose the right thoughts and practice mental disciplines would be crucial to success. This would be a great way to eliminate cynicism and negative thoughts - by instilling positive thoughts. One thing I neglected (purposely

Are these Cognitive Science? To be someone who would not easily governed by the government; who would not believe in fanaticism. Politicans and religious leaders will not like such a person. Sometimes we need to be cynical to stay awaken. Your post reminds me something, which from me and 徐元直 respectively. More detail discussions can be found in [原創] 洗腦

妖言如何惑眾？
http://hksan.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15471

[原創] 洗腦
http://hksan.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=8796&st=0

Thanks for sincere response. I sent you something by PM, and hopefully it helps

發表者: Pearltea Sep 3 2015, 03:15

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Sep 3 2015, 00:41)

我不會聯想到洗腦, 至少我覺沒有人/事會因為灌輸這些思想而直接/間接得益. 但那些Propaganda(政治宣傳)和某些宗教的動機和目的不同.

商業宣傳也有這樣的動機. 像那家叫De Beers的鑽石公司多年前創作的那句'A Diamond is Forever'的宣傳口號(香港廣告譯作"鑽石恆久遠，一顆永留傳", 相信大家都聽過)來增加鑽石銷售. 用物質與感情聯繫, 也令更多情侶開始用物質與金錢來衡量感情. 這些'策略'拆散了多少對真的想'forever'的情侶.

另一個例子是近年來美國的麻疹個案逐年上升, 原因是有個英國醫生用偽造硏究指出自閉症和麻疹預防針有關連. 導致越來越多家長不讓孩子打麻疹預防針. 原來那個醫生背後有一個大律師團支持, 目的就是要"搶劫"藥廠公司.

好像有點離題了. 女生們的態度只是被各方面的conventional wisdom(傳統智慧)感染了. 那些所謂的智慧, 本來不是用來害人的, 只是多帶些'once bitten, twice shy' (一朝被蛇咬十年怕草繩)的想法而偏向負面罷了.

發表者: 徐元直 Sep 3 2015, 03:58

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Sep 2 2015, 09:41 )

To analyze insecurity with irrationality, 'brainwashing', or 'shoulds-and-should-nots' may be heading towards the wrong direction.

The proper response to statements reflecting relationship insecurity is NOT to analyze and point out its logical inconsistency. You have to first understand the purpose of such behavior. Most of the time people say it to express or "act out" internalized stress, and they are expecting you to share this emotional burden, to empathize, not to challenge its legitimacy. By the way, you should never challenge the legitimacy of having an emotion, because to feel something does not require logical justification. You may challenge the thoughts generated by that emotion, because thoughts could be wrong and illogical. But if you do that right away without first acknowledging and 'accepting' the emotion, then communication will not be effective, whatever you say may simply be interpreted as denial and rejection.

This is why you should really listen to what Pearltea suggested:

QUOTE

I know you have great intention to understand your loved ones and want to prove that relationship means more than providing securities, unfortunately it's beyond your ability to fix that. You can though, lead by example. Be the person who is willing to offer open ears and listen to their concerns, and shares your wisdom as appropriate.

On the other hand, if you don't care how others relate to you or how you could support them, you just want to stay away from their way of thinking and stay cynical, then sure, you're probably right in thinking that they're being irrational. But bear in mind that we all have some levels of social insecurity, which is a by-product of our innate psychological need to socialize. The women you described may choose to act out the stress of feeling insecure by making emotionally focused (and irrational) statements, whereas people falling into the male gender stereotype (which also includes some women) may act out using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_%28contemporary%29, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism, and http://spldbch.blogspot.com/2011/07/self-intimacy-and-self-estrangement.html, which results in them being labeled as nerds, 宅, or 毒. The fact is, as long as the sense of insecurity does not become overwhelming or disabling, it should be considered healthy. This is evolutionarily preferred.

As for what may cause this sense of insecurity to become overwhelming or disabling, there are many possible reasons. You can look at it developmentally (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory), as well as socially (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure). I'm unable to go into details here because this is a complicated subject that warrants case-by-case analysis.

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Sep 3 2015, 04:27

QUOTE (Pearltea @ Sep 3 2015, 03:15 )

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Sep 3 2015, 00:41)

我不會聯想到洗腦, 至少我覺沒有人/事會因為灌輸這些思想而令自己得益. 但那些Propaganda(政治宣傳)和某些宗教的動機和目的不同.

商業宣傳也有這樣的動機. 像那家叫De Beers的鑽石公司多年前創作的那句'A Diamond is Forever'的宣傳口號(香港廣告譯作"鑽石恆久遠，一顆永留傳", 相信大家都聽過)不知拆散了多少對真的想'forever'的情侶.

另一個例子是近年來美國的麻疹個案逐年上升, 原因是有個英國醫生用偽造硏究指出自閉症和麻疹預防針有關連. 導致越來越多家長不讓孩子打麻疹預防針. 原來那個醫生背後有一個大律師團支持, 目的就是要"搶劫"藥廠公司.

好像有點離題了. 女生們的態度只是被各方面的conventional wisdom(傳統智慧)感染了. 那些所謂的智慧, 本來不是用來害人的, 只是多帶些'once bitten, twice shy' (一朝被蛇咬十年怕草繩)的想法而偏向負面罷了.

就如當初所想的那樣，沒有人可以改變甚麼，即使看透其中因果。社會、個人經驗、朋輩壓力、傳媒影響‥這些東西長期教化著人，他們應該要怎樣看事情；應該要怎樣生活‥就算知道一個人為什麼缺乏安全感，個人的能力都不足以做甚麼，充其量只能做自己的事。就算再關心一個人，都不能期望自己可以超越世俗對他/她的影響。他/她的信念也是他/她的尊嚴，即使信念裡面可能有偏見、迷信和各種好與壞。無論如何，信念是個人的，是頑固的。如果他/她是朋友、或戀人、或親人，我們總會接受對方。這是到目前為止的體會。

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Sep 3 2015, 05:29

QUOTE

When i found out the sense of insecurity is something beyond personal effort to solve, it's quite frustrating. Of course, challenge someone's emotions is not a realistic idea, although those emotions may not be rational. That's why I tried to express some sort of empathy, without telling them the beliefs what I disagree with. At that stage, I was still searching answers to solve the sense of insecurity. I believe someone would have the solution, it's just not me. As you said, they are having Emotional needs, but not any lesson. And, nobody is going to change one's expectation unless one's intended to. Perhaps accompany and stay silent are the few available choices. Moreover, for one's unrealistic social expectations, the pleasant way to learn is to let her experience it. Experience those beauty advertisements, men, vain religious beliefs and the truth of world, all by her own.

發表者: 參謀ABC Sep 7 2015, 16:24

小資們擔憂的東西可真奢侈，安全感的基石難道不是這個？至少對懂事之後的我來說非常重要。
user posted image

發表者: 試驗帳號2 Sep 8 2015, 12:53

QUOTE (參謀ABC @ Sep 7 2015, 16:24 )

小資們擔憂的東西可真奢侈，安全感的基石難道不是這個？至少對懂事之後的我來說非常重要。
user posted image

謝參謀大人。至少這創意的回覆讓我笑了一下。既然都離題了‥當與某國開戰的後果是不堪設想的，全面戰爭成為不可觸犯的禁忌。諷刺地，人類和平背後竟然是用滅世武器指向對方。這種武器人有我有、擺放著算了，頂多用作茶餘飯後時吹吹水，比較哪國的技術厲害。若某日真要用上，沒有人笑得出來。

發表者: Caesar Sep 9 2015, 05:41

QUOTE (試驗帳號2 @ Aug 30 2015, 13:52 )

QUOTE (Caesar @ Aug 30 2015, 05:49)

謝謝回應。有時我覺得她們把一切想要的東西泛指為「安全感」。

所以才說港女濫用呀。