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香港三國論壇 -> 專題城池 -> 敦煌城

[知乎] 怎樣評價甘地？

追蹤主題 | 郵寄主題 | 列印主題

懶蛇

發表於： Nov 14 2013, 17:21 　評價：+1

中國人不吃這一套

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註冊日期： 9-22-2003

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原文： http://www.zhihu.com/question/21564376/answer/18757780

QUOTE (冷哲)

甘地的主要遺產就是非暴力不合作。

非暴力不合作，是一種非常合乎統治階級胃口的東西。英國人當年就是一手嚴厲鎮壓印度的武力革命派，一手扶持甘地的非暴力派。統治階級宣揚甘地，是因為非暴力不合作非常容易鎮壓。如果單獨出現，對付起來就很簡單。如果此時有暴力抵抗運動，則可以打一派拉一派，緩和矛盾，加強統治。如果當時印度沒有武裝革命派，那麼甘地的運動恐怕早就被鎮壓殆盡了。

除此之外，甘地的思想還符合中產階級的胃口，因為社會動盪對中產階級影響最大（有錢人可以往外跑，沒錢人反正也沒什麼可失去的）。因此甘地的思想不斷受到推崇，這和我國某流亡宗教人士的思想在西方備受推崇是一個道理。

看清楚推崇這種思想的階層的利益取向，也就明白了這種思想有多大價值。有一些社會矛盾，沒有暴力是難以解決的。這並不是說，這些矛盾的解決必須依賴暴力。而是說，暴力可以作為博弈的最終手段。自行放棄暴力，其實就是主動放棄博弈的一個重要工具，最終只能導致博弈的對手佔盡便宜。如果是底層對抗統治階層，或者是被侵略者對抗侵略者，那麼，這種做法差不多就是自己把脖子伸到屠刀下面、自己先自認一個奴隸地位，然後期盼主子能開恩賞口飯吃。

甘地在二戰時主張猶太人集體自殺，來喚起德國人和世界其他地方的人對於納粹暴行的反感。他還建議中國人不要抵抗，讓日本人隨便殺，殺了兩億還有兩億，日本最後殺的手軟了，自然就會“成為中國人的奴隸”。聽著這個調調，你就知道誰會喜歡這種思路了。然後看看如今世界上誰在宣揚甘地的思想。

說白了，這思想就和中國古代君君臣臣父父子子的傳統觀念一樣。聽上去很漂亮，其實卻被強勢的一方當作統治工具來利用。所以，不管甘地本人內心有多高尚，他的整個遺產實質上都是在幫助統治階層。

有人問“如果當年中國出了個甘地，而不是毛澤東，現在會是怎樣”。其實看看印度不就明白了麼？下層缺乏反抗精神，於是就一直受壓迫，形成強大的階層劃分，造成極度低下的階級流動性。下層不反抗，自然也就沒有多少人關心他們的利益。於是底層的科教文衛都差的要命。連合格的產業工人都培養不出來，於是就是製造業發展不起來。所以，如果當年中國出的是甘地而不是毛澤東，那麼今天中國恐怕還不如印度——好歹印度當年還有英國留下來的基礎設施，中國這方面差得多。當然，一個人的存在與否是不可能把歷史改變這麼多的，這裡只是順著那個問題說一說。

QUOTE (張曉嵐)

以前見人討論說，如果汪精衛在中國成功了，那麼他就是中國的甘地。所以每次看見有人推甘地的時候，我就會想到汪。

我怎麼就想起了「三百年殖民地」 (1) (2) (3) 了呢？

--------------------

Caesar

發表於： Nov 14 2013, 17:28 　

Loop

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QUOTE (懶蛇 @ Nov 15 2013, 01:21 )

甘地在二戰時主張猶太人集體自殺，來喚起德國人和世界其他地方的人對於納粹暴行的反感。他還建議中國人不要抵抗，讓日本人隨便殺，殺了兩億還有兩億，日本最後殺的手軟了，自然就會“成為中國人的奴隸”。

求出處

--------------------

Get busy living, or get busy dying.

.

懶蛇

發表於： Nov 14 2013, 17:43 　

中國人不吃這一套

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QUOTE (Caesar @ Nov 14 2013, 12:28 )

QUOTE (不是懶蛇 @ Nov 15 2013, 01:21 )

求出處

這不是我說的呀。不過：

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

QUOTE (wikiquote)

Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs. As it is, they succumbed anyway in their millions.

The Life of Mahatma Gandhi (1950) by Louis Fischer. The quote is in the context of Gandhi's argument to his biographer that collective suicide would have been a heroic response that would have "aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler's violence".

本篇文章已被懶蛇於 Nov 14 2013, 17:50 編輯過

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參謀ABC	發表於： Nov 14 2013, 19:06 　評價：+1
神隱之主犯-永遠與須臾之罪人發表數： 3,458 所屬群組：太守註冊日期： 9-18-2003 活躍：16 聲望：1860	說這些都沒用，說毛澤東有多偉大更是徒勞，要知道羨慕印度的奇葩大有人在，來！干了這碗恆河水，來生定做民主人！

參謀ABC	發表於： Nov 14 2013, 20:10 　評價：+1
神隱之主犯-永遠與須臾之罪人發表數： 3,458 所屬群組：太守註冊日期： 9-18-2003 活躍：16 聲望：1860	日不落帝國經歷一二戰後全面崩潰，老牌殖民國家英國面對無可奈何的國力衰退，定下了盡最大努力體面撤退並搾干殖民地最後一絲價值的戰略目標，此時有限對抗的甘地主義當然成為英國兩害取其輕的選擇，既避免了和殖民地獨立武裝全面對抗帶來的重大損失，又維持了原宗主國在當地的文化經濟影響力，宣傳甘地對誰有利？重新了解時代背景便很容易得出答案，往小了說是對英國有利，往大了說也是對過往長期掌握全球政治經濟文化話語權，如今卻已力不從心的西方有利。

徐元直

發表於： Nov 14 2013, 21:19 　評價：+3

攤抖首領

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QUOTE

中國人不要抵抗，讓日本人隨便殺，殺了兩億還有兩億，日本最後殺的手軟了，自然就會“成為中國人的奴隸”

這句話是真的，但不宜單靠這句話來理解甘地對日本侵華和抗日戰爭的看法。

此言論的出處可以在甘地《My Non-violance》這本書裡找到(參見第88頁)。網上有PDF版本：

http://www.mkgandhi.org/ebks/my_nonviolence.pdf

具體原文如下：

QUOTE

China's Ordeal

"What about China, you will ask. The Chinese have no designs upon other
people. They have no desire for territory. True, perhaps, China is not ready for
such aggression; perhaps, what looks like her pacifism is only indolence. In any
case China's is not active non-violence. Her putting up a valiant defence against
Japan is proof enough that China was never intentionally non-violent. That she
is on the defensive is no answer in terms of non-violence. Therefore, when the
time for testing her active non-violence came, she failed in the test. This is no
criticism of China. I wish the Chinese success. According to the accepted
standards her behaviour is strictly correct. But when the position is examined in
terms of non-violence I must say it is unbecoming for a nation of 400 millions, a
nation as cultured as Japan, to repel Japanese aggression by resorting to
Japan's own methods. If the Chinese had nonviolence of my conception, there
would be no use left for the latest machinery for destruction which Japan
possesses. The Chinese would say to Japan, 'Bring all your machinery, we
present half of our population to you. But the remaining two hundred millions
won't bend their knee to you.' If the Chinese did that, Japan would become
China's slave."

And in support of his argument he referred to Shelley's celebrated lines from
The Mask of Anarchy, “Ye are many, they are few”:

Stand ye calm and resolute, like a forest close and mute, with folded arms and
looks which are Weapons of unvanquished war.

And if then the tyrants dare, let them ride among you there, Slash, and stab,
and maim and hew,— what they like, that let them do.

With folded arms and steady eyes, And little fear, and less surprise, Look upon
them as they slay Till their rage has died away.

Then they will return with shame to the place from which they came, And the
blood thus shed will speak in hot blushes on their cheek.

Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number— Shake your chains to
earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you— Ye are many — they are few.

簡單來說，他認為中國人應該放棄武力抵抗，但這並不是批評當時中國武裝抗日有任何錯誤。

在另一段他還提到，在對某位「中國朋友」的回應中，他拒絕向抗戰中的中國人傳達他的理念。他認為自己作為侵華戰爭的局外人，沒有資格指導那些戰火中掙扎求存的人們「應該這樣做，而不是那樣做」。貿然宣揚他的理念，會對抗戰中的中國人造成干擾和動搖。當然了，他依然認為非暴力不合作才是最好的。

原文如下：

QUOTE

Cultural Destruction?

(Rev. Lew, the distinguished visitor from China, said :) “We are not afraid of material destruction, distressing though it is, but of cultural destruction. The first bomb in Shanghai hit a library. Colleges have been wiped out. Professors have been killed. New education has been disorganized and forced to migrate into the interior."

“Even worse is the moral injury they have done us," he continued. And he gave a lurid description of how a systematic attempt is being made to force the drug evil upon China which they had been, for the last twenty years, trying to fight tooth and nail. “When they occupied Peking they opened 50 new brothels there, filling them with Korean girls. The army of occupation rapes women everywhere, the figure for Peking alone being anything between 8,000 to 20,000 according to various estimates. In Shanghai the revenue in one month from gambling and drug shops that have been opened under Japanese authority amounted to 250 thousand dollars, The morale of the whole nation is being sapped. There is no hope once you are enslaved by the drug habit on a nation-wide scale. Supposing we win the war after 10 or 15 years, we may restore material devastation, but how shall we redeem our young generation?

“We want your message. We have translated your Autobiography into Chinese. We look to you for spiritual guidance."

Culture is Bomb-proof

Gandhiji replied: "I was once asked by a Chinese friend from Shantiniketan to give a message to the Chinese people. I had to ask him to excuse me. I gave him my reasons. If I merely said I sympathized with the Chinese in their struggle, it would be not of much value as coming from me. I should love to be able to say to the Chinese definitely that their salvation lay only through non-violent technique. But then it is not for a person like me, who is outside the fight, to say to a people who are engaged in a life and death struggle, 'Not this way, but that.' They would not be ready to take up the new method, and they would be unsettled in the old. My interference would only shake them and confuse their minds.

“But whilst I have no 'message' to send to the Chinese people who are engaged in fighting, I have no hesitation in presenting my viewpoint to you. I was almost going to ask you as to what you meant by being culturally ruined. I should be sorry to learn that Chinese culture resided in brick and mortar or in huge tomes which the moth can cat. A nation's culture resides in the hearts and in the soul of its people. Chinese culture is Chinese only to the extent that it has become part and parcel of Chinese life. Your saying, therefore, that your culture and your morals are in danger of being destroyed, leads one to think that the reform movement in your country was only skin-deep. Gambling had not disappeared from the people's hearts. It was kept down not by the tone set by society, but by the penalty of the law. The heart continued to gamble. Japan is of course to blame and must be blamed for what it has done or is doing. But then Japan is just now like the wolf whose business it is to make short work of the sheep. Blaming the wolf would not help the sheep much. The sheep must learn not to fall into the clutches of the wolf.

"If even a few of you took to non-violence, they would stand forth as living monuments of Chinese culture and morals. And then, even if China were overwhelmed on the battlefield, it would be well with China in the end, because it would at the same time be receiving a message which contains a promise of hope and deliverance. Japan cannot force drugs down unwilling throats at the point of the bayonet. It can only set up temptations. You cannot teach people to resist these temptations by replying to Japanese force by force. Whatever else force may or may not be able to achieve, it cannot safeguard Chinese morals or save Chinese culture.

“If you feel the truth of my remarks, you will become a living message to China. You will then tell the Chinese people, 'No matter what material destruction Japan inflicts, it cannot bring about China's cultural destruction. Our people must be sufficiently educated and warned to resist all the temptations that Japan may devise. Monuments and cities may be razed to the ground. They are but a passing show, that is going one day to be claimed by time as its own. If they are destroyed by the Japanese, it will only be a morsel taken out of time's mouth. The Japanese cannot corrupt our soul. If the soul of China is injured, it will not be by Japan.' "

=============================================

不管怎樣，冷哲那篇文章最後一段我同意。客觀地說，印度當年出了個甘地而不是印度版的毛澤東，那是中國的幸運，因為信奉甘地哲學的印度，比信奉毛派哲學的印度，威脅小多了。

本篇文章已被 徐元直 於 Nov 14 2013, 21:24 編輯過

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......

參謀ABC

發表於： Nov 15 2013, 02:34 　評價：+1

神隱之主犯-永遠與須臾之罪人

發表數： 3,458
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QUOTE (徐元直 @ Nov 15 2013, 05:19 )

不管怎樣，冷哲那篇文章最後一段我同意。客觀地說，印度當年出了個甘地而不是印度版的毛澤東，那是中國的幸運，因為信奉甘地哲學的印度，比信奉毛派哲學的印度，威脅小多了。

說到底還是中印傳統文化的差異嘛，中國從來就不缺乏最底層通過武裝起義奪取政權的歷史經驗，毛及其同志也是總結發展前人道路才成功的，而印度文化在這方面是空白的，自然產生不了毛澤東了。

懶蛇

發表於： Dec 11 2013, 19:12 　

中國人不吃這一套

發表數： 22,672
所屬群組：太守
註冊日期： 9-22-2003

活躍：46
聲望：1908

QUOTE (參謀ABC @ Nov 14 2013, 21:34 )

QUOTE (徐元直 @ Nov 15 2013, 05:19 )

對於殖民者/侵略者來說，最好的被殖民者/被侵略者不就是這樣：

QUOTE (花蕊夫人 @ 後蜀廣政三十年(965年))

君王城上豎降旗，妾在深宮哪得知，十四萬人齊解甲，更無一個是男兒。

--------------------

懶蛇

發表於： Jul 25 2014, 20:19 　

中國人不吃這一套

發表數： 22,672
所屬群組：太守
註冊日期： 9-22-2003

活躍：46
聲望：1908

http://www.zhihu.com/question/20353414/answer/28279253

QUOTE (周牙 @ 如何評價中國的抗戰和印度甘地的非暴力不合作？)

被西方吹捧的三個人：甘地、曼德拉、昂山素季

中國人只需要“呵呵”就行了

http://www.zhihu.com/question/20353414/answer/15706361

QUOTE (姜振鵬 @ 如何評價中國的抗戰和印度甘地的非暴力不合作？)

每個民族擺脫殖民謀求獨立的國際背景，自身條件和發動時機都是不同的。印度的非暴力不合作運動積極的一面是沒有對社會的財富進行摧毀，消極的一面是革命不徹底，巴基斯坦成為獨立國家，印度的大量資產也都是依舊被宗主國占有（如果想收回這些財產權，不動手是肯定不行的），造成今天印度大量貧困，基礎設施極度落後的局面。中國的基礎設施建設是資金來源於土地，回饋於土地，而印度是土地私有，只能靠稅收資金進行基礎設施建設，幾乎無路可走。這都是當年非暴力不合作帶來的後遺症。

中國的連年戰爭讓大量的社會財富煙消雲散，但是也取得了國家財富的絕對控制權。當年蔣是把大量資產抵押給西方國家借錢打內戰的，解放後x都不認賬了，美國也曾以支持新中國政權為誘餌，讓新中國認可蔣的資產抵押，以及租借權利和資產，但被老一代革命家毅然拒絕，《別了司徒雷登》就是在這個背景下出爐的。這個產權矛盾，是美國為首的西方和中國的首要矛盾。因此解放後，不是我們不想開放，而是西方國家對中國進行封鎖，還處於半戰爭狀態。艱苦的暴力革命雖然代價很大，但是也取得了真正的從殖民枷鎖中的解脫。中國今天對印度的領先優勢（特別是凝結於基礎設施中的社會財富積累），不出現重大的黑天鵝事件，印度一輩子也趕不上了。

http://www.zhihu.com/question/20353414/answer/28352839

QUOTE (蔡東兒 @ 如何評價中國的抗戰和印度甘地的非暴力不合作？)

我中華民族從黃河流域一個小部落發展成為縱橫幾萬里，上下幾千年，幾十個民族，億兆人民的世界大國，哪一步不是一代代中華兒女鬥爭出來出來的？

與天鬥，與地鬥，與外族鬥，與自己鬥。這種鬥爭精神已經融入到了這個兩千多年前就能寫出孫子兵法這類著作的民族血液。

幾千年歷史也無數次證明中華民族在強敵面前只有兩條路：一，我把你幹倒。二，你先幹倒我，我養好了，再把你幹倒。中國自古以來何曾有過類似所謂非暴力不抵抗的行為？我們的敵人也何曾對曾經軟弱的我們有過一絲憐憫？反而中國的軟弱，才是周邊地區所有戰爭和罪惡的根源。

反觀印度歷史，處於極樂世界。但卻先後被雅利安人，波斯人，希臘人，大月氏人，吐火羅人，安息人，匈奴人，突厥人，蒙古人，葡萄牙人，法國人，英國人……所征服和統治，直到20世紀人們都不知道這塊土地的原住民是誰，幾千年來的印度人，從來沒人關心歷史，也從來不在乎被誰統治。這樣的民族文化精神在近代出來這種非暴力不抵抗運動非常正常。

近現代以來，印度和平建國後，有著幾乎最好的外部環境，受到美國，蘇聯，歐盟幾乎所有大國的政治，經濟，科技，軍事支持，那又怎麼樣呢？建國快七十年了，依然沒解決溫飽問題，全國有上億人靠拾荒為生……

當年唐王朝派王玄策使團出使天竺，遭遇新篡位的天竺王襲擊，王玄策逃脫後前往尼泊爾以土蕃和大唐名義借兵萬餘，自為統帥破敵數萬，克城上百，幾乎橫掃了印度半島。

再看近代新中國對印度的自衛反擊戰，受到冷戰雙方美蘇支持、有著全副美式裝備的印度軍隊，照樣被還處在三年自然災害，後勤補給不足的人民解放軍打退，傳言在戰爭後期，解放軍一個連的部隊能打的印度一個團，一個師的部隊潰不成軍……後來中國解放軍高層談起這次戰爭，有人說，中國建國是打出來的，而印度建國是跪出來的，這樣的仗中國不打贏才怪。

面對敵人，同樣作為世界文明古國，同樣的人口大國

中國是打
而印度是跪

自古以來一直如此
所以歷史文化，民族性格已經決定
了，兩國近代選擇還是如此

我猜，將來還是如此

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